Nothing can be taken for granted in terms of the outcome of the presidential election. But we, too, must own up to our part in enabling this dereliction. And I think those are better metrics of power than just an aggregate number like that which is easy to simplify and distort. Is that a private company or is it a public -- is that sort of the public power side of the equation? There are also millions of people who are hungry in America because of this ongoing crisis with the pandemic and economy. iPolitics publishes content everyday, throughout the day. 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ROTHKOPFYeah, if you look at the quotes that come, that quote came around the time of something called the South Sea Island Bubble, which was a financial crisis, a little bit akin to the kind of crisis that we've had now. Because the human rights codes and so forth that are being cited here are actually codes that individuals could be taken to task for. And the issue is not the division of power between public and private, but the concentration of power between large and small. But we should react calmly. Of the veneers, the most prevalent are the smarmy and the insincere ones that we associate with members of Congress, whether they are of the bright orange variety or the clueless Texas senatorial variety or the “shocked, shocked” Dems who would be doing their worst to undercut a GOP president were the shoe on the other foot. From Egypt (again) to Turkey to Brazil, we have recently seen stirring displays of people power, prompting commentators to suggest (again) that we are living in the new 1848 — an era of discontent in which the world’s emergent middle classes are finding their voices. That is what I am more worried about. These pictures of lines go on for miles. Those were both racist dog-whistle issues. And reputational risk can be a very big factor for a corporation, right? That helps give them invulnerability there, too. Will the American people hold high the United States Constitution and its commandment that church and state should be separate, or instead passively slouch further toward a Christian theocracy? For example, McConnell has transformed our judiciary, changed the way our Congress works, and essentially eliminated critical checks and balances. We'd really like a check right now 'cause the systemic risk of our failure is so great that your people will be hurt. One of the things that created Donald Trump was apathy. Do we have to take the low road? GJELTENWell, let me just give you an example. David Rothkopf joins us in the studio this morning. Ideology does matter and ideology also needs to evolve. It includes Nancy Pelosi. And I think that David has done a great -- illustrating a few different examples of how -- regarding the comment about corporations are people. GJELTENThat's exactly what interested me, David, because you talk about how in the beginning, you had this tug of war between individuals and the state and then you had a marrying, in your words, of the legal concept of the business corporation to individual rights. So that makes us, the preeminent power, increasingly devoid of strategic will and a sense of direction. Then, despite repeated evidence that such weapons had been used, Obama failed to act as he had implied that he would. This may be some consolation to whoever is Donald Trump’s successor—it certainly worked to the advantage of George Washington. Rothkopf is the CEO and Editor-at-Large of Foreign Policy magazine and a former Deputy Under Secretary of Commerce. GJELTENOf course, and that's the Supreme Court decision that allowed corporations to spend quite freely in political campaigns. And that this really begins with coming up with a new set of rules in the United States to offset the corruptive force that money plays and globally, to recognize that we don't have a system of -- we don’t have a political ideology to deal with the political and economic realities of the 21st century. But in terms of the broader issues that you raise here, you know, you're absolutely right. ROTHKOPFI think it's kind of interesting, by the way, as you look back on these things, you know, you'll see John Locke cited as a champion of liberty and a champion of personal rights and property rights. COVID and Canada’s chance to defend and renew democracy worldwide. Should we conclude, then, that Donald Trump is the embodiment of their worst fears. In 1950 it was around 15 percent of GDP. It is the equivalent of falling down on a fainting couch. ROTHKOPFIt's kind of a lose-lose situation however, because even if -- and the case has a lot of technicalities in it that go beyond that oversimplification. We, the American people, will live in a world in which, if the president wins and has a majority in the Senate, the message will be clear: They are above the law. At some point in the future a president will say, "Look what Trump did. Recent books include Great Questions of Tomorrow, National Insecurity, Power, Inc., Superclass, and Running the World.He is a former senior official in the Clinton Administration and has taught international affairs at Columbia, Georgetown, and Johns Hopkins. I'm talking about small farmers who, you know, but and I’m gonna get off base a little bit here, but estate taxes and the death tax. ROTHKOPFI said they put more money into the field or actually roughly as much money in the field as the WHO. My country of 76 years seems to exist today at a strange and unnatural distance from me, and not at all clearly. The whole idea of a corporation is that it could go on and on and pass generation to generation. And then there are the names that others give them, like “idealists” or “pawns of the Israel lobby,” which seek to pigeonhole them as naive or tools of secret cabals. And that is maximizing accountability to the public at large. And then, once victory had been achieved, they created a constitutional government that protected itself while enshrining the principles they had fought for in a system that would both protect those principles and resist the efforts of counterforces to reassert themselves. DAVIDAnd so when I heard Mitt Romney say that corporations are people, I think I was dismayed to see the criticism that was offered toward that comment because over the last 20 years ,I've realized and I've become sort of a shareholder, using my investments, as a small investment person, shareholder. And that a lot of players out there are playing by a different set of rules than we are. Undersecretary of Commerce says some giant companies are now borderless super-citizens loyal to no country. I'm Tom Gjelten sitting in today for Diane Rehm. Can you elaborate on what you meant? And you as a shareholder of those corporations ought to be proud of the contribution that's made to job creation and economic growth that's made by corporations.